The Student Christian Movement has organised a prayer vigil:
Join the Student Christian Movement and friends for a nonviolent, prayerful action, to remember the victims of social and economic oppression in the G20 countries, and of IMF/World Bank economic policies worldwide, and to express our hope that the world leaders gathered in Toronto will act in the interests of all people, rather than just the economic elite.
We will gather on Sunday, June 27, at 2 pm, on the grounds of St James Anglican Cathedral (King and Church), and walk to the barricade, where we will remain in prayer and vigil for as long as possible. Some of the participants may choose to obstruct the entry point or the road, and may be arrested, but those who don’t choose to risk arrest can also be full participants in the vigil. Nonviolence and inclusiveness are important values underlying our planning.
You might wonder why the SCM members didn’t just pray at home or in their own local church. Simple: God can’t hear these kinds of prayers unless they are spoken while standing next to a barricade. Or, possibly, this has nothing to do with praying and is just another disconnected-from-reality bunch of left-wing monomaniacs angling to be arrested in order to reinforce their self-inflicted victim status.
Didn’t Jesus say something about making sure that you didn’t pray in street corners for the sake of being seen?
I don’t even know where to BEGIN.
Our young Christians are often Desperate to be relevant.
I pray for their growth in Christ.
Peace,
Jim
I seem to recall Jesus confronting the empire, speaking truth to power. A prayer vigil, which you are all so willing to mock, is a courageous act that speaks about our solidarity as followers of Jesus with the poor, the marginalized, the hungry, the outcast.
Care to say where Jesus did that? I recall that when he was brought before the representative of the Roman Empire – Pilate – he made a point of saying that his kingdom is not of this world.
Just about all his most stinging criticism was directed at the religious establishment of the time; one can only speculate on whether it would be similar today – I suspect it would.
Again, where do you get the idea that Jesus wants us to do things that “speak about our solidarity with the poor”?
He healed, fed, loved, cared for and saved everyone who came to him, poor or wealthy.
He told us to care for the poor and the outcasts and I have every respect for Christians who do, but to have “solidarity” with them is a political gesture, and a meaningless one at that.
Why does the Anglican cathedral get picked out by these folks as the place to start the protest? Are they Anglicans? Just who is behind this group? Inquiring minds who are becoming very suspicious of all these “peace” loving demonstrators want to know.
Hello Gawk,
We might be too quick to presume a dissproportionate Anglican presence within this group. I would not be surprised to also find United, Lutherin, Presbyterian, etc. It may as simple as simple logistics. Of all the Cathedrals in the core of downtown Toronto, St. James has the most space on the lawn, which is great for gathering together a large group. Also, from what I remember of the area, parking is a bit easier near St. James.
Our youth can very easily be convinced that their faith requires them to adopt a “Social Gospel” which, as David says, is not supported by scripture.
However, there are valuable social actions that are scripturally relevant. How about prayer vigils at Abortion Clinics?
Peace,
Jim
I believe Jesus was usually to be found teaching in the open.
I was able to attend the vigil and found it to be a valuable time. As well as bringing prayers for peace and justice, we named victims of outrages prompted by the corporate love-of-money around the world
We were delivering good news to the world – police, protesters and onlookers. And, at least for the time I was there in witness, we made peace.
By the way, David, I’m sorry that solidarity is meaningless for you, but I find it to be a necessary part of sharing the Gospel with people who associate the term ‘Christian’ with oppression, guilt and greed.
Peter,
When you use the terms “good news” and “Gospel”, what do you mean?
Hello Peter
Let me begin by saying that I do not question the legitimacy of your motivation. Additionally, it does seem right that we should take action against evil wherever it is found in this world. But from what I have seen so far it seems that the protests (yours included) at the G8-20 summits were mostly about how bad big business is. No credit was ever given for the jobs that big business has created, nor the wealth and greatly improved standard of living that has benefited countless billions of people around the world. It is all too easy to complain that there is poverty in China and India (and many other places around the world). But do you ever consider how much more poverty there would be if big business had done nothing? Even here in our own country, do you have any idea how much of your own education has been paid for by the taxes by big business? Would have been able to afford to pay the full cost of your education with only your own money? I seriously doubt it! Perhaps instead of biting the hand that has brought food to your table (or at least grown it and transported it to your local grocery store) you should be thankful that this hand even bothers to do this.
Hi
You’re right: I have a full mouth of teeth and the leisure to debate in abstract terms the concrete realities of starvation and land seizure. I am certainly grateful for that.
Being thankful, though, in no way means that:
1 – there isn’t a better way
2 – we should ignore or downplay the human and environmental costs
I would emphasise that I in no way represent the world’s suffering people. I have tremendous privilege. I’d like to use it to point the eyes of the world’s rulers to the plight of those without that privilege.
There may well be a better way, but we’ll never see it realised as long as the same small group of people sit isolated from the rest of us, deciding the fate of the world between them.
I think the best way to express my thankfulness with my situation in life is to use it to call attention to other people’s situations.
In general: Jesus has risen, death has no dominion, mercy has triumphed over judgement and there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, and the Kingdom of God has come.
I see no way to preach the overcoming of death that does not acknowledge the hold that death and its system has on people today.
I also think, in a related note, that it’s pretty vital to emphasise that there is another way than armed conflict or whatever else you call two lines of people wearing black, seeing each other as ‘the enemy’. My hope was that we could witness without falling into the ‘protesters vs police’ scenario.
For those of us on the ground I think it worked, but I don’t think (based on cruising the news today) that it got noticed.
While I wouldn’t entirely disagree with your first sentence, I’m unable to make the connection that you seem to make with the second.
Let me add the following to your first sentence and see if you agree:
Man is sinful by nature and choice and deserves God’s judgement and punishment. Because God loves us, he sent Jesus, his Son, to take our sin upon himself; he then punished Jesus instead of us, satisfying both justice and love. We are free to accept or reject this offer of salvation.
Death is part of the judgement under which we stand without Jesus: sin brought death to the universe. Through Jesus, although our current bodies may die, we will have eternal life in Him – death has lost its sting.
Since death is God’s judgement on sinful man – de-fanged through Jesus and his atoning sacrifice – it has little to do with “death and its system” – by which I assume you mean some combination of violent conflict and capitalist greed.
It is a mistake to blur the distinction between God’s power over life and death and the rather paltry machinations of man. However close we come to the utopia for which you seem to be striving, without accepting Jesus’ offer, death will still be waiting. And however far from utopia we fall, death will still have been defeated for those willing to accept Jesus’ offer.
Hi
All that is true. I affirm the power of Jesus against and above any earthly power.
In one sense, I’m being pretty practical. I can’t hunker down beside someone starving and lead them through the sinner’s prayer if I’m then going to get up and go home to my dinner and leave them to die. It’s not convincing, or loving.
You mention death being a result of God’s judgement. I can get behind that, but it’s also a result of someone pulling a trigger or a poisoning a crop. I’m not facing death right now, but aren’t I under the same judgement as someone staring down the barrel of a gun? Thank God, I have the assurance of Jesus, but that isn’t the reason that I’m not about to be shot. It’s because of thousands of human, sin-based reasons like my economic strength and the conquests of my forefathers.
I feel in a way like I am defending my right to protest, which is a bit silly. What is this discussion about? I got into it because it was suggested that I might be one of a “disconnected-from-reality bunch of left-wing monomaniacs angling to be arrested in order to reinforce their self-inflicted victim status.”
Is that still your suggestion?
I wouldn’t disagree: but I can’t see how what you attended was of any practical help to anyone. Taking a homeless person for a sandwich would have been more convincing.
I still think you are mixing up two different concepts. Jesus has overcome the eternal consequences of death: someone pulling a trigger or poisoning a crop, while it is a bad thing to do, is a temporal act that hastens a fate we are all destined for; it has nothing to do with the metaphysical act of overcoming of death.
I think it’s about confusing the Kingdom of God with the kingdom of this world, attempting to immanentise the eschaton, mistaking left-wing political agitation for Christianity and being very muddled about what God calls us to do as Christians.
That was my generalisation; I can’t impute specific motives to you, of course. That being said, one of the organisers of the prayer vigil, Maggie Helwig, stated quite clearly in the audio here, that her intent and desire was to be arrested. So I don’t think my generalisation was entirely without warrant.
“I think it’s about confusing the Kingdom of God with the kingdom of this world”
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven
Consider what would happen without a police presence. Anarchists seem content only when they destroy something. Odd how they seem to have money earned probably in part by working for the evil multinationals. And I’ll bet they have all had a Big Mac in the last few months. The protesters appointed themselves and seem to be absent at election time. Get elected kid don’t slam those who were elected. Are your feelings hurt because you ended up in detention? I have been on the blue side of the line in TO and had one friend hit in the head with a brick (he had a helmet) and one senior put a hat-pin through an officer’s hand as he helped her up. We were showered with candles and took signs tacked to 2×4’s away. Peaceful demonstration, very much a load of c… !
Steve L
You seem to be replying to me, but with what looks to me like general comments. I’m therefore not sure what to reply to. I don’t represent anarchists (I don’t even think that’s technically possible), only myself. And my feelings aren’t hurt. I had a good prayer vigil. The police were respectful and just, as they are called to be. Likewise, although some of the louder protesters were disruptive or distracted from our prayers, most of them respected the sacred space.
I will say about election, though, that I can’t agree with just voting as an acceptable democratic system. Even if my candidate/option gets selected by the majority, that still means that the minority has been silenced. Demonstrations as well as protests are valid forms of opinion-forming and delivering messages to the powerful, just like publishing newspapers and delivering petitions are.
Peter,
Several times you have stated “Even if my candidate/option gets selected by the majority, that still means that the minority has been silenced.” This is an outright lie. Let’s make no missunderstanding here. I am calling you a lier! In a democracy such as Canada the minority is never silenced. They might not get every thing that they want. They might not have things done their way. They might feel that they are not being listened to as much as should be. BUT THE MINORITY IS NEVER SILENCED! Fact is that the minority in Canada get an amount of attention that is completely dissproportionate and excessive to their perctage of the total population. So have yourself a reality check, and stop pretending that your left wing politics is Christian.
You should also stop tyring to blame big business for many (perhaps all) of the ills of this world. Again, fact is that big business has created the huge majority of jobs, paid the most in wages and taxes, and generated the greatest amount of material wealth in this world. Big business has also done the best job of distributing this wealth, both around the world and to the poorest peoples of this earth. Witness the dramatic rise in the standard of living in India, and also China since it allowed even a limited capitalist element within its economy.
I might be mistaken, but I hope I am not purposely spreading false facts. I’m not sure if you have a specific minority in mind which is never silenced, but if that is the case I would put that down to organisation for lobbying, demonstration, etc.
Of course, having a voice, however it was gained/given, is no guarentee that anyone will listen. What is the appropriate level for one person’s concern to be expressed? At what point should they accept that other people don’t care and give up on their opinions?
I feel uncomfortable debating in such vague or theoretical terms.
What more can I say about the abuses of big business? I have a good life, other people have their land seized for palm oil plantations or ruined by clear-cut logging. I’m not willing to tell the dispossessed that they should be grateful for all my material wealth that I am willing to flow back to them as charity.
And ultimately I don’t blame big buisness. Sin is in the world, perverting the right relationships that the Creator established between each of us, and between us an the creation. I only know one solution to that, ultimately.
“So have yourself a reality check, and stop pretending that your left wing politics is Christian.”
I think I am open to a reality check. I’m not willing for you to excommunicate me for believing that there are better ways of living and relating, though.
I feel somewhat anxious that I am spending a lot of my time on these conversations, which in my experience tend to entrench people rather than open them up to alternative possibilities. At the gathering point of the prayer vigil I was informed in insulting terms by a passer-by that I hated Israel, I hated the government and I was a thug and vandal. He didn’t seem interested in what I was actually saying, or sharing with me his response to the issues around the G8/G20. I’m glad that at least here, people have been willing to present their own views. Please understand, though, that I’m not going to waste my time and yours arguing if it’s just entrenching people in their perspective. I’m glad to have been able to make my points, but I don’t feel the need to defend them or my right to hold an opinion.
Peter,
Although we would probably end up disagreeing about some things however long we talked, I have appreciated your consistently gracious responses.
AMP – Has “big business” ever done anything bad, in your view?
Yes. And where-ever it has done bad things it should be challenged. That being said, the message that is received (and I will concede perhaps not the message intended to be sent) from these “protestors” is that big business is bad – always.
Now, for the “protestors” to whine that the minority is “silenced” is an outright lie. They have the right to voice their opinions, and they excercise that right. As we have seen by the violence and vandalism in Toronto some of them excercise it too much. The fact remains that they do speak and that means that they are not silenced. The problem they have is that most people have no interest in listening to the garbage that they have to say. Just as they have the right to talke, we have the right to not listen. This is something that the “protestors” don’t seem to be able to comprehend nor understand.